Thoughts provoked by Spangel fic
You know what I don’t get about this "happy in heaven" routine– What makes a soul happy in heaven, that it can’t have when it’s here on earth– because the only thing I can think of is total amnesia. Angel is MADE of guilt.
Does Angel’s soul suddenly forget every horrible thing that happened in "life?" Or does a soul have a purely selfish, "I got mine Jack" conception of Happiness, where the misery it left behind doesn’t matter to it– when it mattered SO much to the corporeal being, they might as well be different creatures entirely?
And if it maybe sees the Really Big Eternal Picture and understands that It’s All For The Best —
Why wouldn’t it bring that understanding back with it, and return with a fine new serenity?
(Eta) On thinking about this further, I guess I don’t accept that a disembodied soul has anything more in common with a human than a demon does. While it’s in the human body, it may very well be influenced by human needs– and the physical structure of the human brain, probably– but once it’s out? What’s the difference between it and any other incorporeal being? Just because it seems to be more prevalent inhabitant of the human body… Is that why we are so sure that "souls" are GOOD and those other beings are BAD?
And that would be why theologians say that demons don’t have souls. it would be like saying… I dunno, that fleas don’t have dogs.
Okay, now there is a heluva plot bunny! it’s a shame that metaphysics makes me break out in so many hives…
Angel doesn’t ever go to heaven that I can remember. He goes to hell a few times, and I think consciousness of guilt is integral to that place.
Buffy goes to heaven, and season six takes her through a long process of reacclimation to a place where guilt and fear abound. Her main description of heaven that I remember is “peace.”
I think she’s thinking about my AU where I not only had Angel go on a spiritual quest for forgiveness, but I then ripped his soul out. The implication is that he’s in heaven, and I just hauled his metaphysical ass back home.
I haven’t thought about this from your perspective, being only an occasional* Buffyverse fan. But in my even less frequent moments of actually believing in an immortal soul, I like the Dungeons & Dragons analogy. When you’re out of the game, the concerns of the little people on the board seem meaningless. Even if they’re played by your friends, you know that it’s all just playacting. When you’re playing, you throw yourself into it, and ideally you don’t let real-world concerns affect the way you play.
* those occasions being the ones where a roomful of people gets hold of a big screen and a copy of Once More With Feeling
That’s an excellent analogy, thanks!
The reason I’m thinking about this is because a lot of fic writers makes a big deal out of angel’s soul popping in and out… and when it comes back he’s all guilt-laden about what the demon did while the soul wasn’t around.
Mostly, the answer is that Angel needs a hobby, and his hobby is feeling guilty… And we love the make-up sex he lavishes on Xander. Or Spike.
Angel doesn’t ever go to heaven that I can remember. He goes to hell a few times, and I think consciousness of guilt is integral to that place.
Buffy goes to heaven, and season six takes her through a long process of reacclimation to a place where guilt and fear abound. Her main description of heaven that I remember is “peace.”
I think she’s thinking about my AU where I not only had Angel go on a spiritual quest for forgiveness, but I then ripped his soul out. The implication is that he’s in heaven, and I just hauled his metaphysical ass back home.
Angel doesn’t ever go to heaven that I can remember. He goes to hell a few times, and I think consciousness of guilt is integral to that place.
Buffy goes to heaven, and season six takes her through a long process of reacclimation to a place where guilt and fear abound. Her main description of heaven that I remember is “peace.”
I think she’s thinking about my AU where I not only had Angel go on a spiritual quest for forgiveness, but I then ripped his soul out. The implication is that he’s in heaven, and I just hauled his metaphysical ass back home.
I haven’t thought about this from your perspective, being only an occasional* Buffyverse fan. But in my even less frequent moments of actually believing in an immortal soul, I like the Dungeons & Dragons analogy. When you’re out of the game, the concerns of the little people on the board seem meaningless. Even if they’re played by your friends, you know that it’s all just playacting. When you’re playing, you throw yourself into it, and ideally you don’t let real-world concerns affect the way you play.
* those occasions being the ones where a roomful of people gets hold of a big screen and a copy of Once More With Feeling
That’s an excellent analogy, thanks!
The reason I’m thinking about this is because a lot of fic writers makes a big deal out of angel’s soul popping in and out… and when it comes back he’s all guilt-laden about what the demon did while the soul wasn’t around.
Mostly, the answer is that Angel needs a hobby, and his hobby is feeling guilty… And we love the make-up sex he lavishes on Xander. Or Spike.
I haven’t thought about this from your perspective, being only an occasional* Buffyverse fan. But in my even less frequent moments of actually believing in an immortal soul, I like the Dungeons & Dragons analogy. When you’re out of the game, the concerns of the little people on the board seem meaningless. Even if they’re played by your friends, you know that it’s all just playacting. When you’re playing, you throw yourself into it, and ideally you don’t let real-world concerns affect the way you play.
* those occasions being the ones where a roomful of people gets hold of a big screen and a copy of Once More With Feeling
That’s an excellent analogy, thanks!
The reason I’m thinking about this is because a lot of fic writers makes a big deal out of angel’s soul popping in and out… and when it comes back he’s all guilt-laden about what the demon did while the soul wasn’t around.
Mostly, the answer is that Angel needs a hobby, and his hobby is feeling guilty… And we love the make-up sex he lavishes on Xander. Or Spike.
I do think it’s going to be hard for Angel to come home, and I definitely think you’re right that a soul is influenced by the body, and that without the body, it’s a different creature, but I imagine that crossing that divide is like Daniel getting kicked out of ascension. There is certain information, wisdom maybe, that is attached to that place or that form and can’t be brought back. It just doesn’t fit into the human brain. However, how the pieces fit back together… I’m still mentally playing with that answer, which is why I’m on a Kin of the Soul break.
I do think it’s going to be hard for Angel to come home, and I definitely think you’re right that a soul is influenced by the body, and that without the body, it’s a different creature, but I imagine that crossing that divide is like Daniel getting kicked out of ascension. There is certain information, wisdom maybe, that is attached to that place or that form and can’t be brought back. It just doesn’t fit into the human brain. However, how the pieces fit back together… I’m still mentally playing with that answer, which is why I’m on a Kin of the Soul break.
I do think it’s going to be hard for Angel to come home, and I definitely think you’re right that a soul is influenced by the body, and that without the body, it’s a different creature, but I imagine that crossing that divide is like Daniel getting kicked out of ascension. There is certain information, wisdom maybe, that is attached to that place or that form and can’t be brought back. It just doesn’t fit into the human brain. However, how the pieces fit back together… I’m still mentally playing with that answer, which is why I’m on a Kin of the Soul break.
I think that the soul is who we are, whether a body shell comes with it or not is irrelevant. How ‘good’ or ‘bad’ a soul is comes from the individuals choices, not from the soul itself, but that can change. Animals don’t have souls, and we know that because they are driven by their most basic needs. The surroundings can change, but their need to ‘mate’, ‘feed’, ‘protect’, and so on remains no matter the circumstances. While I think that demons are evil(I think that they are more ‘Greedy’, ‘negative’ and wants to do the most damage(bad influence possible to humans) – I don’t think that the demons of the BtvS universe are the same as those spoken off in the bible. Take Clem and Lorne for example – they are demons but not evil, they’ve ‘chosen’ their path and whether neutral or on the side of ‘good’ I think one can safely say that they have some sort of souls. (or would have if the btvs universe were real). Vampires on the other hand seems different – but they still make the choice in whether to be good or not… and seem to be more about removing the human conscience and letting the ‘dark part’ free. (hence Harmony is able to choose to work for Angel… some are couch potatoes… (suck houses) and so on.
Also – if you are a vampire or whatever, (…) you still in need to feed, and if humans are part of their diet – why should they care about them? Its like the Nazi – the only reason they COULD do what they did, were because they thought of the people they killed as lesser humans, even as low as animals… and if the ‘snails’ in your garden ruins it – you exterminate them. (crude ideology but gets the point through I think). Haven’t really considered it before but… demons of this ‘verse HAS to have some sorts of souls or remains of them – cause otherwise Spike, Harmony ++ couldn’t make the choices they do.
I think heaven is a place where you have fulfilled all your needs(in short, you neither need nor crave anything). Angel wouldn’t be tortured there because he’d FEEL and KNOW that he’s forgiven, and also that he is loved. Perfect happiness so to speak – perfect peace. When Buffy returned from heaven she found the world a ‘hard place’ – who could blame her – to have her soul return to a body with all its needs and failings and to a world who kills each other over the smallest things… no wonder she suffered so bad when she returned. Heaven is heaven because God is there – and God means goodness, care, love and all thats positive. Hell on the other hand is the direct opposite – so its about making those there suffer as much as possible. Earth is a place where both ‘sides’ influence people and try to make them choose to make people miserable or content.
Angel returning to his body from heaven ‘shivers’ (Litgal’s story) he’s gonna be really fucked up for a while (I think). Thats even worse than Buffy – cause she was ‘only’ dead, while his body was off torturing his loved ones, and killing people ++ and if a vampire is the human without a conscience things get even worse cause a part of him WANTED it to happen…
When it comes to the Ascended in Stargate(or BtvS for that matter…) they are on a higher plane than the normal humans, immortal, but not in heaven. The body is gone so the earthly needs are no longer there… I think that in the SG series the no interference rule is bad – they fucked up, ran and then refuse to fix the problem they made. The worship they have in Pegasus (the Ancients) and such is horrible as they refuse to help or let others of their kind do so. Had they removed what they did, and then started interfering things would be different… but as it is their very laws kills and killed millions if not billions of people.
When it comes to Cordy’s kind of Ascended I don’t know much about it… but the very fact that she returned says it all…
er – just thoughts from me. A mix of belief and thoughts that I have. and I find some parts of metaphysics quite interesting…
I think that the soul is who we are, whether a body shell comes with it or not is irrelevant. How ‘good’ or ‘bad’ a soul is comes from the individuals choices, not from the soul itself, but that can change. Animals don’t have souls, and we know that because they are driven by their most basic needs. The surroundings can change, but their need to ‘mate’, ‘feed’, ‘protect’, and so on remains no matter the circumstances. While I think that demons are evil(I think that they are more ‘Greedy’, ‘negative’ and wants to do the most damage(bad influence possible to humans) – I don’t think that the demons of the BtvS universe are the same as those spoken off in the bible. Take Clem and Lorne for example – they are demons but not evil, they’ve ‘chosen’ their path and whether neutral or on the side of ‘good’ I think one can safely say that they have some sort of souls. (or would have if the btvs universe were real). Vampires on the other hand seems different – but they still make the choice in whether to be good or not… and seem to be more about removing the human conscience and letting the ‘dark part’ free. (hence Harmony is able to choose to work for Angel… some are couch potatoes… (suck houses) and so on.
Also – if you are a vampire or whatever, (…) you still in need to feed, and if humans are part of their diet – why should they care about them? Its like the Nazi – the only reason they COULD do what they did, were because they thought of the people they killed as lesser humans, even as low as animals… and if the ‘snails’ in your garden ruins it – you exterminate them. (crude ideology but gets the point through I think). Haven’t really considered it before but… demons of this ‘verse HAS to have some sorts of souls or remains of them – cause otherwise Spike, Harmony ++ couldn’t make the choices they do.
I think heaven is a place where you have fulfilled all your needs(in short, you neither need nor crave anything). Angel wouldn’t be tortured there because he’d FEEL and KNOW that he’s forgiven, and also that he is loved. Perfect happiness so to speak – perfect peace. When Buffy returned from heaven she found the world a ‘hard place’ – who could blame her – to have her soul return to a body with all its needs and failings and to a world who kills each other over the smallest things… no wonder she suffered so bad when she returned. Heaven is heaven because God is there – and God means goodness, care, love and all thats positive. Hell on the other hand is the direct opposite – so its about making those there suffer as much as possible. Earth is a place where both ‘sides’ influence people and try to make them choose to make people miserable or content.
Angel returning to his body from heaven ‘shivers’ (Litgal’s story) he’s gonna be really fucked up for a while (I think). Thats even worse than Buffy – cause she was ‘only’ dead, while his body was off torturing his loved ones, and killing people ++ and if a vampire is the human without a conscience things get even worse cause a part of him WANTED it to happen…
When it comes to the Ascended in Stargate(or BtvS for that matter…) they are on a higher plane than the normal humans, immortal, but not in heaven. The body is gone so the earthly needs are no longer there… I think that in the SG series the no interference rule is bad – they fucked up, ran and then refuse to fix the problem they made. The worship they have in Pegasus (the Ancients) and such is horrible as they refuse to help or let others of their kind do so. Had they removed what they did, and then started interfering things would be different… but as it is their very laws kills and killed millions if not billions of people.
When it comes to Cordy’s kind of Ascended I don’t know much about it… but the very fact that she returned says it all…
er – just thoughts from me. A mix of belief and thoughts that I have. and I find some parts of metaphysics quite interesting…
I think that the soul is who we are, whether a body shell comes with it or not is irrelevant. How ‘good’ or ‘bad’ a soul is comes from the individuals choices, not from the soul itself, but that can change. Animals don’t have souls, and we know that because they are driven by their most basic needs. The surroundings can change, but their need to ‘mate’, ‘feed’, ‘protect’, and so on remains no matter the circumstances. While I think that demons are evil(I think that they are more ‘Greedy’, ‘negative’ and wants to do the most damage(bad influence possible to humans) – I don’t think that the demons of the BtvS universe are the same as those spoken off in the bible. Take Clem and Lorne for example – they are demons but not evil, they’ve ‘chosen’ their path and whether neutral or on the side of ‘good’ I think one can safely say that they have some sort of souls. (or would have if the btvs universe were real). Vampires on the other hand seems different – but they still make the choice in whether to be good or not… and seem to be more about removing the human conscience and letting the ‘dark part’ free. (hence Harmony is able to choose to work for Angel… some are couch potatoes… (suck houses) and so on.
Also – if you are a vampire or whatever, (…) you still in need to feed, and if humans are part of their diet – why should they care about them? Its like the Nazi – the only reason they COULD do what they did, were because they thought of the people they killed as lesser humans, even as low as animals… and if the ‘snails’ in your garden ruins it – you exterminate them. (crude ideology but gets the point through I think). Haven’t really considered it before but… demons of this ‘verse HAS to have some sorts of souls or remains of them – cause otherwise Spike, Harmony ++ couldn’t make the choices they do.
I think heaven is a place where you have fulfilled all your needs(in short, you neither need nor crave anything). Angel wouldn’t be tortured there because he’d FEEL and KNOW that he’s forgiven, and also that he is loved. Perfect happiness so to speak – perfect peace. When Buffy returned from heaven she found the world a ‘hard place’ – who could blame her – to have her soul return to a body with all its needs and failings and to a world who kills each other over the smallest things… no wonder she suffered so bad when she returned. Heaven is heaven because God is there – and God means goodness, care, love and all thats positive. Hell on the other hand is the direct opposite – so its about making those there suffer as much as possible. Earth is a place where both ‘sides’ influence people and try to make them choose to make people miserable or content.
Angel returning to his body from heaven ‘shivers’ (Litgal’s story) he’s gonna be really fucked up for a while (I think). Thats even worse than Buffy – cause she was ‘only’ dead, while his body was off torturing his loved ones, and killing people ++ and if a vampire is the human without a conscience things get even worse cause a part of him WANTED it to happen…
When it comes to the Ascended in Stargate(or BtvS for that matter…) they are on a higher plane than the normal humans, immortal, but not in heaven. The body is gone so the earthly needs are no longer there… I think that in the SG series the no interference rule is bad – they fucked up, ran and then refuse to fix the problem they made. The worship they have in Pegasus (the Ancients) and such is horrible as they refuse to help or let others of their kind do so. Had they removed what they did, and then started interfering things would be different… but as it is their very laws kills and killed millions if not billions of people.
When it comes to Cordy’s kind of Ascended I don’t know much about it… but the very fact that she returned says it all…
er – just thoughts from me. A mix of belief and thoughts that I have. and I find some parts of metaphysics quite interesting…