More thoughts of romance pulp.
Romance (ETA with apologies; I am speaking about Harlequin, Boones & Mills, Danielle Steele and whoever else writes the stuff genre) gives an incorrect view of real people, period.
I consider that the expectations it engendered may have been damaging to my own life, as a non-feminine woman.
Anyone else feel that way?
Do you mean romance as commonly promulgated by the media, or romance as in actually getting enamored of somebody and wanting to be with them all the time and so on?
The two things are so different that I hate to use the same word for them.
*blushing*
(geeze, Stella, way to communicate!)
I meant, Romance as in pulp novels etc– and the tropes from that stuff that have spread into slash.
Re: *blushing*
Ahh, Romance as in *Unreasonable Expectations!*
Yep, oughta be a slash novel title, huh?
Well, partly it depends on how much people buy into the images, the illusions, how much they *want* to believe that’s how it will be for them personally.
A lot of the younger folks I’ve met or talked to seem a lot more cynical about this stuff, but they’ve actually had more media exposure at their age than us old farts, and they tend to play with it, reinvent it, comment on the logical inconsistencies. That said, they still want their illusions fulfilled.
And you know, to some degree, this is reasonable to ask.
Why shouldn’t you be well-treated as the center of somebody else’s attention?
If you’re in love with somebody, why wouldn’t you think about what they like and what would make them happy?
So what happens is a lot of misses because of cheerful little lies to over-eager people who buy into illusions and end up settling for a whole lot less than the real thing.
Well, how would you know, if you’ve never seen it before?
A lot of girlie girls put up with being denigrated and treated like shit, just so they have *somebody* to call a boyfriend–and it’s possibly worse in some of the gay and lesbian ghettos.
Re: *blushing*
And a lot of non-girlie girls tried hard to be girlie girls because you had to wear a bodice, or else how could he rip it?
If you couldn’t wear a bodice… couldn’t bring yourself to want to… then Romance was not for you. Or something. Just musing.
Re: *blushing*
Well, partly it depends on how much people buy into the images, the illusions, how much they *want* to believe that’s how it will be for them personally.
I agree, but I think it’s not necessarily as simple as it being a case of the romance genre putting these ideas into peoples’ heads so much as people of a certain bent latching onto these ideas and using them to reinforce their existing worldview. I mean, fantasy doesn’t make people think they’re elves, but there’s nothing stopping someone who wants to think they’re an elf from playing and using fantasy to justify that belief. Some people can handle illusion, some people can’t.
I’m pretty sure if you asked most romance readers if they thought the stories were realistic, they’d say no, but that they like reading them anyway. Just like I like reading fantasy and science fiction and other stories that are as realistic as a chocolate teapot.
Re: *blushing*
Yes, this. *brings teacup hopefully!*
Re: *blushing*
yes, but even in the middle of the spaceships… romance tropes are there.
Re: *blushing*
Yeah, they are — which is why I always wonder why people slam the romance genre for doing what every other genre does. Because your original post, as you corrected it, appears to be talking about the romance genre specifically. If we’re talking about romance tropes as they appear in all media, yeah, I can definitely see them as problematic — hell, I just watched a KY commercial that’s underlying message seems to be ‘if your husband’s lousy in bed, don’t tell him! Buy our magic sex jelly!’. Because, yeah, THAT’s healthy!
Re: *blushing*
Because the romance genre novel came first, historically speaking, and space operas, westerns, spy novels, etc– if there is a relationship plot, that plot will almost always be a Romance insert.
Hell, whenever I think of a couple of original characters, I first think of the romance tropes that would fit them– then I think about what kind of life struggle, or adventure, or setting I can place them into for context.
Re: *blushing*
Point taken, though I think there’s a difference between Romance as tropes and the modern conception of the romance genre as Harlequin novels and their ilk. Exactly where the boundary between those differences lies, I’m not sure — I suspect that the modern genre lies within the larger Romance Trope cloud and has a border that is slightly more permeable than, oh, air.
I think both groups get a lot of undeserved flack — romance tropes get seen as icky and, well, we all know what kind of sneering Harlequin novels get. Personally, I don’t think it’s fair.
Though as to your last point? I do that too sometimes and I think it’s a useful way to get to know a character.
Do you mean romance as commonly promulgated by the media, or romance as in actually getting enamored of somebody and wanting to be with them all the time and so on?
The two things are so different that I hate to use the same word for them.
*blushing*
(geeze, Stella, way to communicate!)
I meant, Romance as in pulp novels etc– and the tropes from that stuff that have spread into slash.
Re: *blushing*
Ahh, Romance as in *Unreasonable Expectations!*
Yep, oughta be a slash novel title, huh?
Well, partly it depends on how much people buy into the images, the illusions, how much they *want* to believe that’s how it will be for them personally.
A lot of the younger folks I’ve met or talked to seem a lot more cynical about this stuff, but they’ve actually had more media exposure at their age than us old farts, and they tend to play with it, reinvent it, comment on the logical inconsistencies. That said, they still want their illusions fulfilled.
And you know, to some degree, this is reasonable to ask.
Why shouldn’t you be well-treated as the center of somebody else’s attention?
If you’re in love with somebody, why wouldn’t you think about what they like and what would make them happy?
So what happens is a lot of misses because of cheerful little lies to over-eager people who buy into illusions and end up settling for a whole lot less than the real thing.
Well, how would you know, if you’ve never seen it before?
A lot of girlie girls put up with being denigrated and treated like shit, just so they have *somebody* to call a boyfriend–and it’s possibly worse in some of the gay and lesbian ghettos.
Re: *blushing*
And a lot of non-girlie girls tried hard to be girlie girls because you had to wear a bodice, or else how could he rip it?
If you couldn’t wear a bodice… couldn’t bring yourself to want to… then Romance was not for you. Or something. Just musing.
Re: *blushing*
Well, partly it depends on how much people buy into the images, the illusions, how much they *want* to believe that’s how it will be for them personally.
I agree, but I think it’s not necessarily as simple as it being a case of the romance genre putting these ideas into peoples’ heads so much as people of a certain bent latching onto these ideas and using them to reinforce their existing worldview. I mean, fantasy doesn’t make people think they’re elves, but there’s nothing stopping someone who wants to think they’re an elf from playing and using fantasy to justify that belief. Some people can handle illusion, some people can’t.
I’m pretty sure if you asked most romance readers if they thought the stories were realistic, they’d say no, but that they like reading them anyway. Just like I like reading fantasy and science fiction and other stories that are as realistic as a chocolate teapot.
Re: *blushing*
Yes, this. *brings teacup hopefully!*
Re: *blushing*
yes, but even in the middle of the spaceships… romance tropes are there.
Re: *blushing*
Yeah, they are — which is why I always wonder why people slam the romance genre for doing what every other genre does. Because your original post, as you corrected it, appears to be talking about the romance genre specifically. If we’re talking about romance tropes as they appear in all media, yeah, I can definitely see them as problematic — hell, I just watched a KY commercial that’s underlying message seems to be ‘if your husband’s lousy in bed, don’t tell him! Buy our magic sex jelly!’. Because, yeah, THAT’s healthy!
Re: *blushing*
Because the romance genre novel came first, historically speaking, and space operas, westerns, spy novels, etc– if there is a relationship plot, that plot will almost always be a Romance insert.
Hell, whenever I think of a couple of original characters, I first think of the romance tropes that would fit them– then I think about what kind of life struggle, or adventure, or setting I can place them into for context.
Re: *blushing*
Point taken, though I think there’s a difference between Romance as tropes and the modern conception of the romance genre as Harlequin novels and their ilk. Exactly where the boundary between those differences lies, I’m not sure — I suspect that the modern genre lies within the larger Romance Trope cloud and has a border that is slightly more permeable than, oh, air.
I think both groups get a lot of undeserved flack — romance tropes get seen as icky and, well, we all know what kind of sneering Harlequin novels get. Personally, I don’t think it’s fair.
Though as to your last point? I do that too sometimes and I think it’s a useful way to get to know a character.
I never read enough of them to have expectations. Given a choice between romance and fantasy/SF, I’ll go for the dragons and spaceships every time.
What fantasy and sci-fi novels can you think of, that don’t have a romance sub plot– but do have interesting relationship plot arcs?
One I can think of is Jo Clayton’s Skeen trilogy. Skeen gets back together with the man she thinks betrayed her. The denoument is a bit awkward, but in fact– rather realistic, the kind of stupid miscomunication that can happen when you live on the outskirts of the mainstream, and the rest of the story focuses on other bits of interrelational dynamics. (the other thing about that series is that the relationship is a triad, with the ship being the third member)
I never read enough of them to have expectations. Given a choice between romance and fantasy/SF, I’ll go for the dragons and spaceships every time.
What fantasy and sci-fi novels can you think of, that don’t have a romance sub plot– but do have interesting relationship plot arcs?
One I can think of is Jo Clayton’s Skeen trilogy. Skeen gets back together with the man she thinks betrayed her. The denoument is a bit awkward, but in fact– rather realistic, the kind of stupid miscomunication that can happen when you live on the outskirts of the mainstream, and the rest of the story focuses on other bits of interrelational dynamics. (the other thing about that series is that the relationship is a triad, with the ship being the third member)
Mmm… I never really read them enough to be damaged by them. I know that as a feminine woman (I mean that I identify as female, even if I don’t go for the trappings that most people consider to be feminine) they weren’t about me, and they weren’t about anyone that I wanted to be either. They were about stupid, weak, oversensitive, easily-influenced, and downright insulting caricatures of women.
The only romance novels I’ve ever really been into were by Jane Austen. Her women were smart and knew themselves and the happy endings came after everyone was with someone who respected them and they could respect back.
Mmm… I never really read them enough to be damaged by them. I know that as a feminine woman (I mean that I identify as female, even if I don’t go for the trappings that most people consider to be feminine) they weren’t about me, and they weren’t about anyone that I wanted to be either. They were about stupid, weak, oversensitive, easily-influenced, and downright insulting caricatures of women.
The only romance novels I’ve ever really been into were by Jane Austen. Her women were smart and knew themselves and the happy endings came after everyone was with someone who respected them and they could respect back.
Some of the current romance novel writers would object that we’re all using broad-brush stereotypes about what the genre is about, and that it’s not all one single narrow infantilist fantasy any more. It’s like folks saying SF & F is just about spaceships shooting monsters from what you see on the airport racks–but of course people do make that judgment.
Some of the current romance novel writers would object that we’re all using broad-brush stereotypes about what the genre is about, and that it’s not all one single narrow infantilist fantasy any more. It’s like folks saying SF & F is just about spaceships shooting monsters from what you see on the airport racks–but of course people do make that judgment.
Never read it (aside from once flipping through one of my grandmother’s books while on vacation, in search of masturbatory material). So I’m guessing it didn’t effect me much.
Never read it (aside from once flipping through one of my grandmother’s books while on vacation, in search of masturbatory material). So I’m guessing it didn’t effect me much.
*blushing*
(geeze, Stella, way to communicate!)
I meant, Romance as in pulp novels etc– and the tropes from that stuff that have spread into slash.
Re: *blushing*
And a lot of non-girlie girls tried hard to be girlie girls because you had to wear a bodice, or else how could he rip it?
If you couldn’t wear a bodice… couldn’t bring yourself to want to… then Romance was not for you. Or something. Just musing.
Re: *blushing*
yes, but even in the middle of the spaceships… romance tropes are there.
Re: *blushing*
Because the romance genre novel came first, historically speaking, and space operas, westerns, spy novels, etc– if there is a relationship plot, that plot will almost always be a Romance insert.
Hell, whenever I think of a couple of original characters, I first think of the romance tropes that would fit them– then I think about what kind of life struggle, or adventure, or setting I can place them into for context.
What fantasy and sci-fi novels can you think of, that don’t have a romance sub plot– but do have interesting relationship plot arcs?
One I can think of is Jo Clayton’s Skeen trilogy. Skeen gets back together with the man she thinks betrayed her. The denoument is a bit awkward, but in fact– rather realistic, the kind of stupid miscomunication that can happen when you live on the outskirts of the mainstream, and the rest of the story focuses on other bits of interrelational dynamics. (the other thing about that series is that the relationship is a triad, with the ship being the third member)