“but what if my black character is stereotyped by accident?”
That’s not the reason to not write characters of color. You know what my answer is?
Rewrite that character. Especially in epublishing, it’s perfectly possible to do that.
Of course it might mean a heluvalot of hard work and time, to do that, and it might change some plot points or interactions, or whatever.
But if I care enough to get defensive, I ought to care enough to get to work.
********
Just as a completely totally sidebar-type thing, Pat Califia gave me back a sense that it was possible to be male in my female body.
And I always liked the juxtaposition on the bookshelves where Burroughs the mysogynist sat right next to Califia, who was queerer than anything Big Bill could have ever imagined.
And then Pat went and made the change. I’m happy for him, discouraged, and ravingly envious.
The writer produced a sterotypic person by accident? How could that happen? Um, I’m with you–BAD WRITING. By accident? No. By oversight and laziness, possibly. Failure to edit.
Editors will be the first to get bored by your work if you do that.
Just plain & simple: Edit more carefully.
I’ve been staying out of the racefail stuff (and not commenting and then ducking out) because I know I’d get in angry hairtangle with some of the folks I’ve tangled with before, and for many of the same reasons.
I’d be *happy* to go off on them just like this, but it’d take a h ammer to get their attention. Probably one that’s on fire.
The temptation to jump into this is very strong. Sigh.
Just had to run back with a link gakked via a comment on ‘s lovely post.
http://calligrafiti.livejournal.com/529201.html
comments there:
I know, seriously. [info]rosefox is the sf/fantasy/horror reviews editor at Publishers Weekly, and she has a wonderful post on the whole thing here:
Further link here which I think you’ll enjoy:
http://rosefox.livejournal.com/1463662.html?nc=95&format=light
I don’t know if I’ve told you, but I find your perceptions concerning just about everything fascinating.
I love my female body, (especially my rack, but I like most every one of those…) but I feel very male about most things if that makes any sense.
Hee! And the trite comeback is; “I’d feel very male about most things about you, too!”
*blushes* Aren’t you just the silver tongued devil? *wink*
The writer produced a sterotypic person by accident? How could that happen? Um, I’m with you–BAD WRITING. By accident? No. By oversight and laziness, possibly. Failure to edit.
Editors will be the first to get bored by your work if you do that.
Just plain & simple: Edit more carefully.
I’ve been staying out of the racefail stuff (and not commenting and then ducking out) because I know I’d get in angry hairtangle with some of the folks I’ve tangled with before, and for many of the same reasons.
I’d be *happy* to go off on them just like this, but it’d take a h ammer to get their attention. Probably one that’s on fire.
The writer produced a sterotypic person by accident? How could that happen? Um, I’m with you–BAD WRITING. By accident? No. By oversight and laziness, possibly. Failure to edit.
Editors will be the first to get bored by your work if you do that.
Just plain & simple: Edit more carefully.
I’ve been staying out of the racefail stuff (and not commenting and then ducking out) because I know I’d get in angry hairtangle with some of the folks I’ve tangled with before, and for many of the same reasons.
I’d be *happy* to go off on them just like this, but it’d take a h ammer to get their attention. Probably one that’s on fire.
The temptation to jump into this is very strong. Sigh.
Just had to run back with a link gakked via a comment on ‘s lovely post.
http://calligrafiti.livejournal.com/529201.html
comments there:
I know, seriously. [info]rosefox is the sf/fantasy/horror reviews editor at Publishers Weekly, and she has a wonderful post on the whole thing here:
Further link here which I think you’ll enjoy:
http://rosefox.livejournal.com/1463662.html?nc=95&format=light
The temptation to jump into this is very strong. Sigh.
Just had to run back with a link gakked via a comment on ‘s lovely post.
http://calligrafiti.livejournal.com/529201.html
comments there:
I know, seriously. [info]rosefox is the sf/fantasy/horror reviews editor at Publishers Weekly, and she has a wonderful post on the whole thing here:
Further link here which I think you’ll enjoy:
http://rosefox.livejournal.com/1463662.html?nc=95&format=light
I don’t know if I’ve told you, but I find your perceptions concerning just about everything fascinating.
I love my female body, (especially my rack, but I like most every one of those…) but I feel very male about most things if that makes any sense.
Hee! And the trite comeback is; “I’d feel very male about most things about you, too!”
*blushes* Aren’t you just the silver tongued devil? *wink*
I don’t know if I’ve told you, but I find your perceptions concerning just about everything fascinating.
I love my female body, (especially my rack, but I like most every one of those…) but I feel very male about most things if that makes any sense.
Hee! And the trite comeback is; “I’d feel very male about most things about you, too!”
*blushes* Aren’t you just the silver tongued devil? *wink*
Accidentally stereotyped?
Well, I could see getting the Magic Negro archetype by accident, as that’s the term for the black person with insight and maybe special powers who aids the white protagonist. That could be the accidentally result of focusing too much on the protagonist and just wanting to incorporate a minority in a strong role. (The downside is the Magic Negro only appears in order to help– they give no indicator of having a life of their own, and are a sort of mystic figure instead of a rounded personality. It also suggests a holdover from the Victorian idea of the Noble Savage)
But other than that, how do you accidentally stereotype someone? You’d have to either have no cultural awareness, or believe the stereotypes are realism. The latter IS racism.
T
It’s really far easier to accidentally stereotype than that, and it doesn’t have to be as blatant as Magic Negro.
focusing too much on the protagonist whom, it goes without saying is white…
Hey, I have an idea– let’s have a Magic Negro as sidekick to a black protagonist!
Now there’s an idea! I’ve been staying far away from RaceFail — I have my opinions, but at this point it seems pointless to jump into the fray. Hopefully a few decent ideas will be generated by this whole clusterf*ck, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it will only be after the dust settles a bit.
Thankfully, I’ve never had gender issues. (I’ve always loved Pat Califia, BTW…) I do know one MtF, and she gives me hope whenever I talk to her. The things I want to change about myself and my life are not nearly as — drastic — as the things she changed about her life. So there is hope yet!
My house is rife with dynamic issues right now, and things are shifting almost quicker than I can keep up with them. It leads to not a whole lot of online time.
There have been some excellent ideas generated by this (not a clusterfuck, it’s far more widespread than that) including a brand new epub, Verbe Noire And, most definitely, a great deal of conversation of many good will kinds.
I had better make a more comprehensive post!
Oh and I’m such a jerk– I’m so very wishing you the best right now!
Accidentally stereotyped?
Well, I could see getting the Magic Negro archetype by accident, as that’s the term for the black person with insight and maybe special powers who aids the white protagonist. That could be the accidentally result of focusing too much on the protagonist and just wanting to incorporate a minority in a strong role. (The downside is the Magic Negro only appears in order to help– they give no indicator of having a life of their own, and are a sort of mystic figure instead of a rounded personality. It also suggests a holdover from the Victorian idea of the Noble Savage)
But other than that, how do you accidentally stereotype someone? You’d have to either have no cultural awareness, or believe the stereotypes are realism. The latter IS racism.
T
It’s really far easier to accidentally stereotype than that, and it doesn’t have to be as blatant as Magic Negro.
focusing too much on the protagonist whom, it goes without saying is white…
Hey, I have an idea– let’s have a Magic Negro as sidekick to a black protagonist!
Now there’s an idea! I’ve been staying far away from RaceFail — I have my opinions, but at this point it seems pointless to jump into the fray. Hopefully a few decent ideas will be generated by this whole clusterf*ck, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it will only be after the dust settles a bit.
Thankfully, I’ve never had gender issues. (I’ve always loved Pat Califia, BTW…) I do know one MtF, and she gives me hope whenever I talk to her. The things I want to change about myself and my life are not nearly as — drastic — as the things she changed about her life. So there is hope yet!
My house is rife with dynamic issues right now, and things are shifting almost quicker than I can keep up with them. It leads to not a whole lot of online time.
There have been some excellent ideas generated by this (not a clusterfuck, it’s far more widespread than that) including a brand new epub, Verbe Noire And, most definitely, a great deal of conversation of many good will kinds.
I had better make a more comprehensive post!
Oh and I’m such a jerk– I’m so very wishing you the best right now!
Accidentally stereotyped?
Well, I could see getting the Magic Negro archetype by accident, as that’s the term for the black person with insight and maybe special powers who aids the white protagonist. That could be the accidentally result of focusing too much on the protagonist and just wanting to incorporate a minority in a strong role. (The downside is the Magic Negro only appears in order to help– they give no indicator of having a life of their own, and are a sort of mystic figure instead of a rounded personality. It also suggests a holdover from the Victorian idea of the Noble Savage)
But other than that, how do you accidentally stereotype someone? You’d have to either have no cultural awareness, or believe the stereotypes are realism. The latter IS racism.
T
It’s really far easier to accidentally stereotype than that, and it doesn’t have to be as blatant as Magic Negro.
focusing too much on the protagonist whom, it goes without saying is white…
Hey, I have an idea– let’s have a Magic Negro as sidekick to a black protagonist!
Now there’s an idea! I’ve been staying far away from RaceFail — I have my opinions, but at this point it seems pointless to jump into the fray. Hopefully a few decent ideas will be generated by this whole clusterf*ck, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it will only be after the dust settles a bit.
Thankfully, I’ve never had gender issues. (I’ve always loved Pat Califia, BTW…) I do know one MtF, and she gives me hope whenever I talk to her. The things I want to change about myself and my life are not nearly as — drastic — as the things she changed about her life. So there is hope yet!
My house is rife with dynamic issues right now, and things are shifting almost quicker than I can keep up with them. It leads to not a whole lot of online time.
There have been some excellent ideas generated by this (not a clusterfuck, it’s far more widespread than that) including a brand new epub, Verbe Noire And, most definitely, a great deal of conversation of many good will kinds.
I had better make a more comprehensive post!
Oh and I’m such a jerk– I’m so very wishing you the best right now!
Jumping in here way after (thought I’d take a quick peek at your LJ after your comments in mine before taking off for work) but you know, I think it’s ok to make a mistake, to end up saying or doing something different than what you intended. People aren’t perfect. But you have to be willing to learn from them and try to do better. Like, you publish a book where you unintentionally stereotyped someone. Ok, admit it, listen to how people tell you you messed up, and try to do better next time. If you’re a print author, hold out for eventually being popular enough to be able to rewrite it. Like, I haven’t read him, but Joe (John?) Abercrombie said that his world was sexist and didn’t have much for women to do because he used a sexist template. People criticized him and, while he possibly still didn’t quite “get” it, he showed a willingness to TRY to. (And I learned about this after an article about a recent book of his, which was essentially a long apology for putting a woman on the cover of an epic fantasy.)
I think where a lot of the problems in RaceFail ctopped up were where people didn’t listen to the criticisms, and instead treated their critics like oversensitive whiners. Instead of trying to consider the “other side,” they did everything they could to undermine the otherside and carefully explain how the critics just didn’t know what they were talking about, etc.
Jumping in here way after (thought I’d take a quick peek at your LJ after your comments in mine before taking off for work) but you know, I think it’s ok to make a mistake, to end up saying or doing something different than what you intended. People aren’t perfect. But you have to be willing to learn from them and try to do better. Like, you publish a book where you unintentionally stereotyped someone. Ok, admit it, listen to how people tell you you messed up, and try to do better next time. If you’re a print author, hold out for eventually being popular enough to be able to rewrite it. Like, I haven’t read him, but Joe (John?) Abercrombie said that his world was sexist and didn’t have much for women to do because he used a sexist template. People criticized him and, while he possibly still didn’t quite “get” it, he showed a willingness to TRY to. (And I learned about this after an article about a recent book of his, which was essentially a long apology for putting a woman on the cover of an epic fantasy.)
I think where a lot of the problems in RaceFail ctopped up were where people didn’t listen to the criticisms, and instead treated their critics like oversensitive whiners. Instead of trying to consider the “other side,” they did everything they could to undermine the otherside and carefully explain how the critics just didn’t know what they were talking about, etc.
Jumping in here way after (thought I’d take a quick peek at your LJ after your comments in mine before taking off for work) but you know, I think it’s ok to make a mistake, to end up saying or doing something different than what you intended. People aren’t perfect. But you have to be willing to learn from them and try to do better. Like, you publish a book where you unintentionally stereotyped someone. Ok, admit it, listen to how people tell you you messed up, and try to do better next time. If you’re a print author, hold out for eventually being popular enough to be able to rewrite it. Like, I haven’t read him, but Joe (John?) Abercrombie said that his world was sexist and didn’t have much for women to do because he used a sexist template. People criticized him and, while he possibly still didn’t quite “get” it, he showed a willingness to TRY to. (And I learned about this after an article about a recent book of his, which was essentially a long apology for putting a woman on the cover of an epic fantasy.)
I think where a lot of the problems in RaceFail ctopped up were where people didn’t listen to the criticisms, and instead treated their critics like oversensitive whiners. Instead of trying to consider the “other side,” they did everything they could to undermine the otherside and carefully explain how the critics just didn’t know what they were talking about, etc.